Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Josef Preiß

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) DavidLeighEllis (talk) 02:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Josef Preiß

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I'm not sure if this person is notable. I dream of horses (T) @ 04:14, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. I dream of horses (T) @ 04:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He is notable according to WP:SOLDIER. Preiß received Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, the highest German award for military valour during Wolrd War II. MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:36, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say that he also appears notable and may need familiar attention to search for any better sources. SwisterTwister talk 05:48, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spirit of Eagle (talk) 05:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:09, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:09, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Sam Sailor ^Talk! 03:23, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This is a difficult one. Given over 7,000 Knight's Crosses were awarded for a single war I really don't think we can realistically equate it to the Victoria Cross (181 awards for WWII) or Medal of Honor (471 awards for WWII). I really think we should restrict inherent notability to the higher versions of the award. Unfortunately, however, there seems to be some assumption that it does qualify a recipient for an article, as about one third of recipients do already have articles. So it does need further discussion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:42, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — To answer your question, you have to do a dive into award criteria themselves first. What I mean by this, you have to separate the recipients into those who received the award for pure bravery in combat, and those who received the award for outstanding military leadership. Other nations awarded separate service awards for skilled leadership; an example is the Distinguished Service Order. This is true for all grades of the Knight's Cross. One also has to take into account that the Victoria Cross (or Medal of Honor) was exclusively awarded for deeds of extreme bravery. Therefore a pure number comparison will not work. MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Exactly. And we do not consider the DSO sufficient for inherent notability. Although two would be. I'm also sure that when the Knight's Cross was awarded for acts of gallantry the level was frequently considerably below that required for the VC (probably closer to that required for the DCM or DSO for gallantry, which again would not qualify a recipient for an article unless it was awarded at least twice). So we're still getting a situation where German personnel require a considerably lower threshold for inherent notability than British or American personnel. That doesn't seem right or logical. We're back to the old argument as to whether all recipients of the Légion d'Honneur, for instance, are notable because it's the highest honour France can give, despite the fact that they're handed out as ubiquitously as the MBE in Britain. We've already come to the conclusion that all recipients of the L d'H should not be considered notable and I think we need to come to the same conclusion for the Knight's Cross. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:01, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There are multiple books in German covering the Knight's Cross winners of all grades so they're notable in that respect. The Germans seem to be fascinated by them to a degree unknown in the Commonwealth or US for anything lower than the VC or MoH.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:45, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - ß is not an English letter, needs to be changed to "ss"... Carrite (talk) 15:49, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - No need to debate about which military medals are more valuable than others, there is actually a very broad Special Notability Criterion for WP inclusion. WP:Notability for Biography, "Any Bio no. 1," which states: "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times." That's all there is to it, there is no need to meet an arcane Military project hoop. This subject passes on that basis. SEE: WP:ANYBIO. Carrite (talk) 15:54, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem here is that would also include such honours as the Distinguished Service Order and the Military Cross! Both very well-known and significant. Yet we would never accept (and have never accepted) that these provide inherent notability. So, no, that's not enough. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Sturmvogel 66 and Carrite. St Anselm (talk) 00:55, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.